Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

I think it would have been one thing if it was a documentary, but instead it's supposed to be "inspirational". I think it's the wrong message to put out there

I think the counter to bad examples (such as the case this show is gonna be based on) is to provide good examples. I don't think it's any individuals place to decide that society as a whole shouldn't examine these bad examples. It's something that happened, after all.

A long kiss goodnight

I think it would have been one thing if it was a documentary, but instead it's supposed to be "inspirational". I think it's the wrong message to put out there

I wonder if they will write it in such a way that the 'Evil Alter' stereotype looks 'cool'. I think that'd be pretty damaging, making that seem like something to aspire to.

2:12 PM

kinda confused how they can write it to be inspirational... maybe it will be very heavily adapted?

Stories of evil alters just sell.

didn't the person say later on that she made it all up? thought i read that somewhere

Would a story about an ordinary did system sell too?

Jerln

didn't the person say later on that she made it all up? thought i read that somewhere

different case I believe

It's hard to counter this at all with the media spreading like wildfire and any positive examples being pretty niche. How do you get hundreds of thousands of people interested in a positive example?

by it being cool and inspiring

2:19 PM

if there are people out there who don't like cool and inspiring positive stories, you can't reach them and shouldn't try

2:19 PM

focus on people who will listen, instead

Lapis

Would a story about an ordinary did system sell too?

I think a story about recovery could sell, and be very inspiring at the same time as being very interesting since it's so far from ordinary experiences. (makes me wonder if that's the angle the show is going for, don't know tho)

You have to do something like bury inspiration beneath incredible adversity or some sort of froofy well known artsty movie director. Hallmark tulpamancy special.

2:31 PM

But really those sorts of things just pop up more than being made to happen. Right people to make the push, right time, right place. Try without it and you get the MTV special.

a truly inspirational movie for people struggling with mental health would be a movie about a person with DID that experiences healing. but even that people in the community would hate because it would "shove fusion down our throats!!"

Ale𝕏andra 🍄🐈

I think a story about recovery could sell, and be very inspiring at the same time as being very interesting since it's so far from ordinary experiences. (makes me wonder if that's the angle the show is going for, don't know tho)

oh yeah you said it

Deleted User

a truly inspirational movie for people struggling with mental health would be a movie about a person with DID that experiences healing. but even that people in the community would hate because it would "shove fusion down our throats!!"

ironically, that actually might be more controversial to make than a story about "eViL aLtErS"

yeah

a truly inspirational movie for people struggling with mental health would be a movie about a person with DID that experiences healing. but even that people in the community would hate because it would "shove fusion down our throats!!"

@Deleted User - jump I think it might not sell for similar reasons the stories about antivaccers don't sell.

what do you mean? i watched dozens of hours of videos about antivaccers on youtube

Yeah, there is a lot of debunking on YouTube watched mostly by already convinced people.

2:38 PM

But have you seen movies about antivaccers making actual harm in theaters?

i didn't know such movie existed!

I though they don't. If you know such a movie, please share.

Technically in movies you're far better off being anti vaccine - too many zombie vectors.

I'd like to see a movie where people don't take a vaccine for zombie virus that quickly gets developed and instead they are trying to get natural immunity.

Don't Look Up was basically about antivaxer's mindset (edited)

2:42 PM

people loved it

2:42 PM

it's not the general idea that "sells", but the execution

Lapis

Yeah, there is a lot of debunking on YouTube watched mostly by already convinced people.

a lot of it is what I call "debunking for sport"

1

recreational debunking

1

Don't Look Up was basically about antivaxer's mindset

@Deleted User - jump For some reason though, they won't make story about concrete examples of the mentality which do harm in real world, not just a fictional script.

I think that might be because it would hit too close to home if it was non-fiction, and people would reject the message on emotional grounds

Once you cross a certain like it starts to feel patronizing and like propaganda

it's probably a way too divisive topic, more than a movie about DID recovery

Ale𝕏andra 🍄🐈

I think that might be because it would hit too close to home if it was non-fiction, and people would reject the message on emotional grounds

interestingly it hit way too close to home for my american colleague to the point they weren't able to watch it

2:51 PM

but they really struggle with their parents being way too deep in those stuff

Like don't believing in the global warming lie by extension of not believing in the globe lie?

but who knows, maybe there is a movie being made. pandemic is not over yet

2:53 PM

(contrary to some people behaviours) (edited)

I couldn't watch much of Don't Look Up, I just found it too depressing!

1

Jesus, editing tupperbox messages was already pain and now it's broken. Sorry for bad grammar.

making movies to prove a particular point is like giving someone a fish

2:58 PM

I think it's better to make a movie that teaches about the concepts behind it... for example, rather than teaching people that the earth is round, teach them to not just believe whatever people tell them

2:58 PM

i.e. teach them to fish

Lapis

Would a story about an ordinary did system sell too?

Depends on what "ordinary" is. I mean regardless, it will sell. Just a question of to what extent, and whether it helps or hinders as representation. I'm of a similar mindset as An is on these things I believe. Mental illness awareness-raising is tricky. You don't want people to fall prey to medical student's disease and start auto-suggesting symptom behavior in them. With some conditions it is more of a risk than others, I believe. (edited)

In that regard, othering and demonizing is actually helpful in creating a them-us mentality! (edited)

5:39 PM

It's brilliant, psychologically, really.

Scarlet

Depends on what "ordinary" is. I mean regardless, it will sell. Just a question of to what extent, and whether it helps or hinders as representation. I'm of a similar mindset as An is on these things I believe. Mental illness awareness-raising is tricky. You don't want people to fall prey to medical student's disease and start auto-suggesting symptom behavior in them. With some conditions it is more of a risk than others, I believe. (edited)

most importantly the story in the movie should be interesting in order to sell, and the execution should be well done. if it was representing the "ordinary system" in the way that i would presume did community would want to ("i hang out with alters! i do self harm! we can go for dates with different people! my persecutor slaps me in the face! i spend whole day fantasising! i run away from problems! i slap my host's partner and blame it on my alter! i'm a highschooler with did and run a normal life embracing my plurality, being plural is normal, everyone should enable me, learn about my system structure and refer to me the way i want it!"), it would be super boring and in my opinion would lead to some viewers developing pseudo-did as you suggested. i think that what some people in did community don't realise is that their lore is interesting >to them<, and they probably fantasise about having a movie based on their lore, but majority of people would find it just plain boring.

6:42 PM

what sells is stories about people's lives and their struggles that they overcome. in this context, i genuinely think the best story would be showing a person's life, starting from their childhood (which would probably put it up there in terms of PEGI), what kind of problems they have in life because of that as teenagers and adults, show where disordered life can take you and how certain unhealthy mechanisms developed, maaaaaybe show a bit of inner world as part of the struggles, but also show the healing process - resistance to it at first, a few breakthroughs that lead to opening up, struggles on the way, but the story should lead to healing and i would argue it should lead to the protagonist deciding to do final fusion, without anyone imposing it on them. It should inspire people to heal, not inspire society to change the way it operates to enable and accommodate people with a disorder. This way the spread of pseudo-did would be limited, because the message of the movie would be that aspiring to treat leads to overcoming the disorder, and live fuller, happier life. There is so little about this in DID community. Everyone just wants to be enabled for the rest of their life. if the story would try to normalise DID plurality, it would be just propaganda for the rest of society to just start accepting it by exploiting people's compassion and empathy, which in my opinion is very selfish and wouldn't make anyone happier compared to actual healing in my opinion.

6:49 PM

and i'm pretty sure that any movie that is not supporting enabling people would be hated by the community

Deleted User

most importantly the story in the movie should be interesting in order to sell, and the execution should be well done. if it was representing the "ordinary system" in the way that i would presume did community would want to ("i hang out with alters! i do self harm! we can go for dates with different people! my persecutor slaps me in the face! i spend whole day fantasising! i run away from problems! i slap my host's partner and blame it on my alter! i'm a highschooler with did and run a normal life embracing my plurality, being plural is normal, everyone should enable me, learn about my system structure and refer to me the way i want it!"), it would be super boring and in my opinion would lead to some viewers developing pseudo-did as you suggested. i think that what some people in did community don't realise is that their lore is interesting >to them<, and they probably fantasise about having a movie based on their lore, but majority of people would find it just plain boring.

I don't know. Sounds like the sort of thing that would sell in America at least, unfortunately.

Have you seen our "reality TV"? People love drama, real or manufactured.

7:04 PM

Though I do hope that you are right. To be fair, I think the other type of story you talk about, about healing, sells also. But I do agree for SURE that the second would have far more of a positive effect.

Deleted User

most importantly the story in the movie should be interesting in order to sell, and the execution should be well done. if it was representing the "ordinary system" in the way that i would presume did community would want to ("i hang out with alters! i do self harm! we can go for dates with different people! my persecutor slaps me in the face! i spend whole day fantasising! i run away from problems! i slap my host's partner and blame it on my alter! i'm a highschooler with did and run a normal life embracing my plurality, being plural is normal, everyone should enable me, learn about my system structure and refer to me the way i want it!"), it would be super boring and in my opinion would lead to some viewers developing pseudo-did as you suggested. i think that what some people in did community don't realise is that their lore is interesting >to them<, and they probably fantasise about having a movie based on their lore, but majority of people would find it just plain boring.

Aka: the MTV special

7:25 PM

People watch that stuff but it's mostly to see those people and their crazy lives to make you feel better about your own from what I've seen. Nobody looks up to them

Right—I'm saying they'd watch the sensational take for the same reason. (edited)

I think plurality has the potential to provide a great vehicle to give an audience deep insight into a particular character. System-lore , wonderland stuff etc. could be put to great use in a piece of media by providing a very creative set of ways to communicate things to the audience about a character they are invested in. The more invested in a character the audience is, the more meaningful the piece of media about them can be. So I think this is where system lore and the like could potentially come in; to serve the purpose of character building to assist the audience in making a connection to the character.

I'm not sure if you are referring to what I think community would expect from well represented DIDers, or my opinion on what the potential movie would need to show

Ale𝕏andra 🍄🐈

I think plurality has the potential to provide a great vehicle to give an audience deep insight into a particular character. System-lore , wonderland stuff etc. could be put to great use in a piece of media by providing a very creative set of ways to communicate things to the audience about a character they are invested in. The more invested in a character the audience is, the more meaningful the piece of media about them can be. So I think this is where system lore and the like could potentially come in; to serve the purpose of character building to assist the audience in making a connection to the character.

yeah, "Inside Out" does exactly that, but I don't think it should be the selling point of the story

Deleted User

yeah, "Inside Out" does exactly that, but I don't think it should be the selling point of the story

yeah, making it the primary point is putting the cart before the horse in my opinion ^w^

7:40 PM

wasn't familiar with Inside Out

Deleted User

yeah, "Inside Out" does exactly that, but I don't think it should be the selling point of the story

Another good example is Shallan from the Stormlight archive.

Ale𝕏andra 🍄🐈

wasn't familiar with Inside Out

it's pretty good way of showing children how emotions work

ty for mentioning it, that could be valuable

bemacbe

Another good example is Shallan from the Stormlight archive.

Shallan’s alternate identities are beneficial for multiple reasons for her character development and the story as a whole. They help her reveal many aspects of her character in a very natural way in the story, they help Shallan in tight situations by being capable of fitting into environments that normally she wouldn’t be well attuned to dealing with, and they add a bit of internal struggle that Shallan has to overcome in a healthy manner, or risk losing the bond she made with her spren and by extension her powers.

so, in the context of did i have 2 problems with that: 1 - "i wish i had multiple personalities to adapt to multiple situations like that character!" which has potential to lead towards learning about did, joining community and developing peudo-did 2 - i think people with did should use as little fantasy as possible because they get way too absorbed in it, and here the author went kind of go meta, because the story is about something DIDers fantasise about a lot (alters and their own inner world) shown in a fantasy world

7:51 PM

it must be pretty cool for the story though, in my opinion it doesn't necessarily serve well for the health of community

I very much doubt the former is a thing that would happen with any kind of consistency. In many contexts singlets do not even parse the idea that symbolic or fantasy plurality can even be something real. It would be more of an issue if it were portrayed as DID directly or something like that.

I wouldn't expect any consistency in that either, and if you can't say that readers would consistently disregard it as something not real, that would make me personally worried. but i already saw that book being mentioned online in two places before, and people in the comments telling other people to look into DID. and I already saw where that kind of exploration leads towards

1

They should probably also understand that for 1 that they can have the same adaptability within a single identity.

Deleted User

I wouldn't expect any consistency in that either, and if you can't say that readers would consistently disregard it as something not real, that would make me personally worried. but i already saw that book being mentioned online in two places before, and people in the comments telling other people to look into DID. and I already saw where that kind of exploration leads towards

Seems like a second order issue to me. Correlation rather than causation. People with DID with poor education attaching to something is going to happen, regardless. At its worst it can be use as a forcing mechanism to get someone to understand the mindset. But that doesn't happen to singlets who do not already have a vested reason in believing they have DID, and people with DID are as you say, prone to submersion regardless.

8:06 PM

However to devil's advocate the alternate view: For healthy singlets, models such as these can be useful for basic empathy. Vital, even.

8:07 PM

Even if it's off, or idealized in some way.

I definitely think that if the idea were common more people would jump on it as a rationalization for what's going on in their head - not sure if that would be good or bad though, because even if it turns out bad for some those people may have been destined to find an unhealthy way to cope no matter their environment

That is somewhat my view as well. Ultimately I think the ideal scenario is that mental health treatment gets de-stigmatized so these people feel no conflict in asking for help outside of the internet. But that will take cultural effort over generations.

"They're prone to it anyway, so therefore we shouldn't worry about it." is kind of like not trying to control your blood sugar when you're in the prediabetic range because, well "obviously you're predisposed to diabetes anyway". The fact they're more prone to suggestion and such is all the more reason to be careful, not less. (edited)

"They're prone to it anyway, so therefore we shouldn't worry about it."

You misunderstand me, but let me put it this way: What does control look like to you in this situation?

8:15 PM

What would you suggest we do to this piece of fiction to prevent it being harmful?

More that I'd draw the line between a generic thing that can go either way and one that's innately harmful - so if a movie was normalizing something like self depreciation that would be bad, but tulpa like stuff can be a coin toss (also depending on what they present)

I would say almost every answer you could give would be more harmful than letting it exist.

8:17 PM

The root cause is the lack of education and mental health assistance coupled with weird internet echo chambers

8:17 PM

It's not a book.

Heck, I'm inclined to blame it almost entirely on the echo chambers

What art does for us is important. I'll go to bat for it every time.

8:18 PM

I think I would be a very lesser person without it.

Zen

Seems like a second order issue to me. Correlation rather than causation. People with DID with poor education attaching to something is going to happen, regardless. At its worst it can be use as a forcing mechanism to get someone to understand the mindset. But that doesn't happen to singlets who do not already have a vested reason in believing they have DID, and people with DID are as you say, prone to submersion regardless.

i don't expect you to agree with me on this, and i know i probably already have a reputation of someone being maybe too cautious about things

but you are saying "that doesn't happen to singlets who do not already have a vested reason in believing they have DID,", while i met a person who said "DID is not that rare! i helped 25% of my gaming discord server to discover they have DID!". Also there is a pattern of singlets joining the commmunity "because they want to learn about DID because they friend has it" and then questioning being a singlet after a week in the community, and it was happening all the time when i was still part of it

Again, that is an issue with someone taking the time to suggest those things to singlets.

8:19 PM

Not the tool they use to do it.

that's my point

The book is completely irrelevant in that context even if they shared it.

It can be a problem even with a movie that introduces the concept, I believe

it is relevant if you read comments about the book and see someone mentioning DID and encouraging you to do research about it

I wouldn't disagree with that either Reguile, I think it's much, much rarer though.

8:21 PM

I would highly suspect people who stumble on tulpamancy the traditional ways may be likely to fall into the pseudo-DID crowd accidentally, for instance.

Reguile

It can be a problem even with a movie that introduces the concept, I believe

Yeah, cases of DID spiked when Sybil was released

All of this to me comes down to proper education and proper mental health architecture. (edited)

sounds like utopia

8:22 PM

we are living in the world where people believe world is flat because of education